What We Can Learn From Chazal About Dating
By: Rabbi Steven Pruzansky
Date: Thursday, July 07 2011
A recent piece posted on Matzav.com signed by "A Crying Bas Yisroel" chillingly lamented the plight of a young single woman, with fine personal qualities but without any family money or yichus, who sits forlornly waiting for her phone to ring with calls from shadchanim. Alas, the phone never rings, and for her, the shidduch system is an ongoing nightmare.
Not coincidentally, but perhaps surprising to some, almost all the weddings I attended this past month were those of couples who had "long-term" relationships. They either met in high school or when high school age, or in Israel or their early college years, and almost all of them met on their own. They did not use shadchanim, but met the old-fashioned way: in healthy social settings where young men and women mingle naturally, without the pressure of "potential spouse" hovering over every encounter. That is not the norm in Jewish life these days, but perhaps it should be.
That is not to say that the shidduch system is failed, or failing, or broken. Too many people work too hard on setting up unmarrieds that it would be incorrect and insulting to say that it is broken. So it is not broken - but perhaps it should be a b'diavad (post facto) and not a l'chatchila (ab initio) system.
L'chatchila, it would seem, Chazal emphasized that we should find our own mates.
The Gemara (Kiddushin 2b) cites the pasuk "When a man takes a woman [in marriage]" and explains "darko shel ish l'chazer al ha-isha," it is the way of men to pursue women [in marriage]. It is not the way of men, or shouldn't be, to enlist a band of agents, intermediaries, and attorneys to do the work for them. By infantilizing and emasculating our males, we have complicated a process that should be simpler and made a joyous time into one of relentless anguish and hardship for many women.
This is reminiscent of the life story of a pathetic man we recently encountered in the weekly Torah reading - Ohn ben Pelet. The Gemara (Sanhedrin 109b) states that "ishto hitzilato" - his wife saved him from the clutches of Korach. Ohn was an original co-conspirator who is not mentioned again after the first verse, because his wife explained to him the foolishness of his conduct (Ohn loses if Moshe wins and gains nothing if Korach prevails), prevented him from joining his fellow conspirators, and, as the Midrash adds, held onto his bed to prevent the ground from swallowing Ohn and then dragged him to Moshe to beg forgiveness. Ohn was a sad excuse of a man.
Mrs. Ohn, in effect, saved her husband not only from Korach but also from himself. The problem with Ohn is that he perceived himself as an object, and not a subject or an actor. Ohn wasn't a leader - he was a born follower, an object for others to use. He just allowed himself to be yanked along by anyone - for evil and for good. He was just part of the crowd, the personification of the personality of weakness, dependence and self-abnegation. He took no responsibility for his own destiny.
An object is a tool of others; a subject is the master of his destiny. In the realm of dating and marriage, we are breeding Ohns by the thousands by freeing men from their obligation to pursue their potential spouses, and thereby relegating women to the dependent role of passively waiting to be the chosen one. Why do we do that, and is there a better option?
Some will argue that the shidduch system spares our children the pain of rejection - but part of life, and a huge part of parenting, is preparing our children for a world in which they will experience rejection at some point. That is called maturity.
Others will argue, with greater cogency, that we prevent young men and women from sinning. Relationships that begin when couples are younger, or friendships that start outside the framework of parental supervision, can induce or lead to inappropriate behavior. That possibility is undoubtedly true, but can be rectified by applying a novel concept called "self-control," which in any event is the hallmark of the Torah Jew.
We do not tell people to avoid The Home Depot even if one wants to buy a hammer lest he shoplift some nails, nor do we admonish others not to shop in Pathmark because one might be led to sin by the aroma of non-kosher foods. Self-control and discipline are routine components of the life of a Jew. And, even granting that "there is no guardian for promiscuity," it should still be feasible for a young man to talk to or display his personal charms to a woman without assaulting her.
Sad to say, there is a promiscuity problem, even among some of our high school youth and certainly in college, that cannot be swept away. It can be resolved if parents take responsibility and sit down with their sons and teach them how to respect women - and sit down with their daughters and teach them how to respect themselves.
Something is not normal, and against human nature as Chazal perceived it, for men to be so diffident, so timid, so Ohn-like, and sit back comfortably relying on others to procure them dates. Young men who would not allow others to choose for them a lulav and etrog do not hesitate to delegate others to find them a spouse. This also unduly delays their fulfillment of the commandment of pru u'rvu (procreation). And something is not normal, and frankly, unfair, when young women have to sit by the phone for weeks and months waiting to be contacted by agents.
What is the solution, or the other option? For those people currently of age and in the system, or for communities that would accept only the shidduch system, there is no other solution but to redouble our efforts. They will reap the reward, and also, sadly, the misery of those who choose to be passive in life. Obviously, unmarried men and women should be seated together at weddings to facilitate more natural, pressure-free encounters; it is so obvious, it is surprising it is even debated.
But for younger people today - say, older teens - there has to be a better way. The paradigm of "don't smile/talk/socialize/date" until one is ready for marriage constricts the capacity of our young people to assume responsibility for their own lives. Many will disagree with me, even among my colleagues, but if we wish to minimize the heartbreak of so many of our young people, we must find healthy ways of encouraging interaction between teenagers - in shuls, in schools, in youth groups. We have to de-stigmatize self-help and personal initiative.
For example, at a shul Kiddush, it should not be construed as abnormal or off-putting if a young man approaches a young woman who has caught his eye, and asks her name, and "would you like a piece of kugel?"That should be normal; at one point, that was darko shel ish. Indeed, that should be even more normal among people of marriageable age, and would consign the shidduch system to its appropriate b'diavad status, for people who have not been able to meet on their own. Perhaps the young woman whose lament was featured above should take similar initiatives as well.
Dating at too young an age is certainly problematic, but teenagers who learn to socialize in groups demystify the opposite sex and learn appropriate boundaries, communication skills and modes of interaction. Such contact makes males more sensitive, and helps them learn at an early age that a young woman is not a shtender, in the Steipler's elegant phrase, or a vehicle for their own gratification, in the modern lexicon. It certainly helps prepare a couple for marriage if they know each other longer than three weeks or three months, and the recent spate of broken engagements and early divorces in the Jewish world would tend to confirm that. And conversely, the plethora of recent weddings of couples in our community who know each other for years would corroborate that as well.
I am mindful of the opinions of the gedolim who proscribe any male-female interaction before one is ready to marry, and those gedolim who permit such contact in controlled settings. As a community we have other options than the false choice of isolationism or promiscuity, and we need to strengthen our young men with the inner confidence to guide their own lives. There are too many people walking around with Y chromosomes who are not men. They have an Ohn-like existence, sitting back comfortably and letting others plot their destiny in life. They will never be masters, only objects who cannot lead or build or create. That does not bode well for Klal Yisrael.
May Hashem bless with success the work of all shadchanim.But we need to shift the culture away from the passive indifference of the well-connected to the active pursuit of spouses by all, and thereby mold more assertive men and more confident women. That is because more is expected of us - as a nation that is called by God for greatness, not mediocrity; to be active, not passive; to be followers of God and leaders of mankind.
Rabbi Steven Pruzansky is spiritual leader of Congregation Bnai Yeshurun of Teaneck, New Jersey, and the author most recently of "Judges for Our Time: Contemporary Lessons from the Book of Shoftim" (Gefen).
This article is great. And true. And should be done.
ReplyDeleteBut the fact is, no matter how much we preach or plead, social norms will not be overturned overnight.
I have a theory, which has been shown to work in other fields, that if something is going on in a culture that doesn't work, after a generation, say, 20 years, it works out.
The age of men approaching women is not happening now. But maybe in 20 years everyone will fear rejection less, hopefully garnering better self-esteem than current individuals.
Great article! Thanks for posting.
ReplyDeleteGreat article! I would also point out that what adds to the "emasculating" of our males, in the more "to the right" communities, is the concept of a man solely learning and his wife supporting the family (as a lechatchilah/greatest level/scenario). A woman in those scenarios must literally be super woman, in order to take care of everything at home, plus work, give to her husband and also give to herself. The man is no longer the man--don't get me wrong, learning is huge and should be a part of all of our lives. But we learn Torah in order to live Torah. And this is the world of action--Adam's curse was that he'd eat from the sweat of HIS brow. It didn't say he'd be learning while Chava would be sweating. Alas, that is a different topic but I liked how he phrased the term "emasculating" of the males...if there is one trait that greatly attracts me to men is an amalgamation of self-confidence, perseverance and that "go-getter" personality. Unfortunately, I rarely see it...perhaps we have "emasculated" our males...
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do disagree on one point that he made. I don't think that the excess of divorces and broken engagements is because of the shidduch system and because people date for short periods of time. Its rather because people are more infatuated with getting engaged and the idea of getting married than what it actually entails. The perception and understanding of what marriage is has completely been hindered--in part due to influences by society. It might even be argued that couples that stay together for years from high school might not even be right for each other but because there is a level of comfort (which makes it harder to break that relationship).
Fascinating, thanks for posting!
ReplyDeleteExcellent points, ZP! I agree with you completely that long-term dating is disastrous and unhealthy for all involved. Yes, Rabbi Pruzansky may have recently attended lots of marriages resulting from long-term relationships, but what about the far greater number of such relationships that end with heartbreak and tremendous baggage, or as you say, proceed to marriage solely because of the difficulty of ending something that has gone on for so long.
ReplyDeleteWith regards to the emasculation of males, you're absolutely right, and it's worthy of an entire post one of these days. One does not need to look very hard in chazal to find that full-time learning was never meant to be the norm, but rather reserved for those few, unique iluim. I think that it is a destructive situation for many men who are not cut out for it, and by extension for many marriages.
Firstly, you wrote that you are "nonetheless impressed that he would write such an article". I am frankly not "impressed" as this is typical for a Modern Orthodox outlook. The funny thing is that he we can see where such things lead when looking into the MO community. It is the sad reality that in communities where social interaction between girls and boys is normal things are not as kosher as R' Pruzansaky would himself like. Yes, there are plenty of couples who are "shomer negiah", but many more that aren't. Obviously, such a system too has its very serious failings.
ReplyDeleteI too see many failings in the Shidduch dating scene. However, I do not see how the Rabbi draws his conclusion that Chazal would have endorsed the dating system that he is proposing. Where does he see this that "darko shel ish l'chazer al ha-isha" means that they men approached ladies in mixed social settings and had casual contact before being ready to pursue marriage partners. As far as I see it, it is pretty clear in the times of Chazal women and men were for the most part kept separate. I would say that "darko shel ish..." means that the husband should be the initiator which he still is (I should hope) when it comes to dating. He calls her etc. The shidduch system still gives men the opportunity to show that masculinity.
R
@PNN: Agreed, having gone to a MO (out of town) high school, I've seen my share of high school relationships. In many cases (not all)it has been detrimental for them. I'm sure that if some of them had met afterward, they wouldn't have even gone out. Don't get me wrong, I strongly believe that making marriage work is more about making the commitment to making it work than who you actually marry. Of course, you want to find someone with similar goals and ambitions (if you are lucky to find someone that has those lol) but overall, its about realizing you are making this commitment to make it work. But on the other hand, I see from my own personal growth, change and emotional maturity from i.e. 19 to 22 that these are the years where you are truly developing and to go into these defining years with someone who is, in some cases, holding you down (because in any relationship, you are compromising and adapting to that person, but those young years are the time to davka not do that). Furthermore, the article made a comment which I think is an unfortunate belief in our community which is that success was rated by weddings. He didn't mention whether those weddings turned out into lasting and healthy marriages--as long as you are married, that's the end goal. And as I mentioned before, I think that perception is davka what causes many problems among young (and old) married couples.
ReplyDeleteI'm pleasantly surprised that you agree with me and I look forward to reading a post on the "emasculation" of males. I think it is something that has affected the whole world--we are in a society that wants everything to be fast, easy and simple. If anything gets too complicated, people stop. It's not like I'm asking for struggle BUT without struggle and hardship there is no gain. I don't think that the learning system is what caused this emasculation but it definitely adds to it (perhaps correlation but not causation?). MOST men are not cut out for it. But again, its not either you learn or work. I was actually considering writing a post on "SuperWoman" and all the psychological and emotional issues that can and do rise from such scenarios but alas, I didn't...
I agree with ZP that dating as a high schooler does not guarantee no divorce. So they date when they are 14 and 15, and they want to marry at 18 or 19. Getting married at such a young age is not good either, because, as ZP said, we are still changing and maturing and finding out who we are and how we want to live our lives.
ReplyDeleteTo reiterate her point, people are thinking of the party. Not a lifelong relationship.
The divorces nowadays occur no matter what Jewish lifestyle or age or length of dating. It's just happening all over the place.
And I heartily concur that many men today are completely stripped of any incentive. But there are also many men who are working and still pass the ball when it comes to dating.
@PL: You're absolutely right. As you and ZP say, the emasculation of males is not something unique to "learners", nor is it unique to the Jewish community. Books such as Kay Hymowitz'"Manning Up: How the Rise of Women Has Turned Men Into Boys" testify to that.
ReplyDeleteI think everyone's comments were excellent but Anonymous' points were also right on the ball (yet not addressed...?). The Rabbi doesn't really deal with the potential dangers of the system he's suggesting and that many of those problems are precisely the reason that the right-wing crowd are so bothered by the more modern's treatment of the relationship between men and women. But, I don't agree that the men initiating the contact is a way to express their masculinity. From what I've heard from guys who were/are in the yeshiva system, they're more often than not the ones who are petrified of making that first phone call. And, fine, they're the ones that initiate- how long does it last before the women take over being the ones in charge?
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure who made the comment, but I'm very surprised that the Rabbi said this: "And conversely, the plethora of recent weddings of couples in our community who know each other for years would corroborate that as well." Let's see an empirical study in 15 years from now that looks into the statistics of how length of dating correlates to success of marriage before somebody makes a statement like that, perhaps. Who knows if these marriages will last? So they got married. A lot of people get married. A lot of people also get divorced. Means nothing to get married. Let's see, and hope, that the marriage lasts.
ZP: It's the woman's choice to put herself in that kind of scenario, is it not? My sister does it, but I frankly have no interest in a girl who wants me to be sitting and learning all day. What you wrote about Adam and Chava isn't one of the 613 mitzvos and can be interpreted in many different ways. Nowadays there are plenty of men who don't sweat a drop while making millions of dollars. So are they not doing it right? As for it "emasculating" men, none of the traits you described are exclusive to the working man; they can easily be ascribed to someone in Kollel, just in a different way than you're thinking of. Oh, and now I see that it was you who mentioned what I wrote about above lol. Well said.
New to bloggers, I've been catching up with your posts about dating. Love your cynical realistic views :)
ReplyDeletePlease comment on my latest post? seems like the sort of situation you'd have a answer too
http://lovesickforg-d.blogspot.com/
ps: i'm also new to the whole dating world, do not have a resume (yet) but hmm fun discovering all the behind the scenes
@Shocked: I have nothing against that system. As long as it is the woman's choice, kudos. But when you are brought up in a world where that is looked as ideal/lechatchila and marrying a guy that is not learning is looked down upon, I would argue that perhaps the choice is not so "free" after all.
ReplyDeleteI didn't claim that the "curse" of Adam was one of the 613 mitzvot. I just meant to say that this is the world of action. We are meant to work for our "bread". Obviously, working should only be the means to something greater, though many get side-tracked.
I didn't say that what has "emasculated" men is (only)learning in kollel. I just offered a suggestion that perhaps the switching of the roles have added to this emasculation.
Yes, the traits I mentioned are not solely possessed in those are working. Trust me, there are many guys who are working who lack self-confidence, self-motivation and dreams/goals. I just meant it as a general statement that those are traits that I greatly value and unfortunately rarely see in (most) men (specially self-motivation).
haha yes, I'm glad you agree in something that I said lol.
Fair enough...
ReplyDeleteI don't think you refuted my argument lol. We should work. Ok, now what's work?
Ok, it's possible.
True dat.
:)